Christian Universalism

by **imaginethat** Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:14 am

More and more, this is the direction to which I am drawn. This idea, of universal (in God's own time and in His own way) salvation feels powerful, feels correct. The tolerance of our Founders drew some of its inspiration from universalist tenets (which are FAR removed from the substancelessness of the modern UU church).

An interesting essay on Universalism.

Why I am a Universalist: Only 100% is Good News
By Logan Geen

Before I accepted the fact that I was a Christian Universalist I wrestled for some time with the concept of eternal Hell. I had no trouble professing to believe the idea with my lips but deep within my heart I knew that I didn't really believe a lot of the nonsense I had read about Hell from Catholic and Protestant sources alike. The only person whose thoughts on Hell made any sense to me at all was CS Lewis. I could accept that the doors of Hell were locked on the inside, that eternal damnation simply meant a rebellious and wicked soul telling off their Creator and simply reaping what they had sown, but I still found the idea of a large segment of the human race being lost forever to be troubling. Free will may have softened the doctrine, but it didn't take away the fact that somewhere inside I found the idea of even one person being lost forever to be a failure on the part of Christ. How on earth could I believe in religion--how could I worship a God or follow a Savior--who had failed to truly redeem the human race? Anything less than universal salvation (a concept I hadn't really been introduced to yet) seemed like second best at best and a complete failure, a virtual humiliation of God at worst. I couldn't get excited about serving a God who would standby while anywhere from 50-95% of the human race continued their inexorable march to what I came to call the "cosmic bunsen burner in the celestial basement".

While I wrestled with making sense of this idea I also found that many other religions seemed to have a better handle on justice than Christianity--Hinduism and Buddhism had karma, Judaism did not believe in eternal hell but rather believed in Gehenna as a form of purgatory. Over time I eventually came to terms with the fact that I was unorthodox, a heretic even, but that's another story. Despite my attraction to other religions I could not get away from Jesus Christ--I wasn't able to then, I haven't been able to do so to this day. I couldn't turn away from a man who taught us to love our enemies and who forgave his executioners as they drove spikes through his wrists. Christ seemed the very embodiment, the very incarnation, of Divine Love, a sacrament of the God whose very nature was Love. How, then, could eternal Hell still remain in the picture? Christ himself had taught that a shepherd who had recovered 99 of 100 lost sheep would not be satisfied until the last was home. This was the Hound of Heaven I understood.

Eventually I read the book If Grace is True by Philip Gulley and Jim Mulholland, I discovered the website GodQuest.org, and I soon became very educated in the history of Christian Universalism. At long last I had a name for the soteriology I had been moving towards for some time. I had made an uneasy peace with the concept that only a very few would be lost forever, I could live with annihilationism, but the idea of a 100% victorious Savior was true "Good News". The Gospel made sense again. I never stopped believing in Hell or Divine Justice (I still believe in the need for Divine punishment), nor did I reject the fact that the human condition was broken and needed help. What I had found comfort in was the Truth that God would find a way to reach the last of the lost, that the offer of salvation would never be withdrawn, and that eventually every soul would rise, returning to the Creator. It fit perfectly with the Biblical promise of a completely transformed and redeemed world.

I believe in a God who achieves 100% success in the salvation department--I simply cannot find hope in, trust or worship a God who achieves anything less. This was a God I could worship. This was a Christianity I could believe in. This was a Gospel that was truly Good News!

by **swiftfoxmark2** Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:37 am

This world is not ruled by God, but has been given over to Satan by mankind. This is the result of the Fall of Man. While Jesus redeems us before God, we have to understand that He hasn't taken back our world from Satan.

As for God's judgments, I don't presume to know what they will ultimately be. It is clear that people will be thrown into the 'Lake of Fire' in the end for not having their names written down in a book, but it isn't exactly clear what standard he uses. I assume that because God knows our own hearts, that his metric is based on our hearts and not exactly anything we do. So I don't know how this will all come to pass, but Jesus was clear on who He was and what He stood for.

While I do have concerns for those who reject God, I think we should be more concerned with ourselves and let God lead us to where we need to be. Fretting over God's Will is a lot like trying to push a boulder uphill in Hades. It is impossible to understand completely. Live for Jesus now and don't worry about what happens in the end. This is the life of faith that is required of us.

by Pat Riot'76 Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:22 pm

And like Moses who lifted up the serpent in the wilderness even so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. God loved the world so much that He gave His only unique Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Because God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him could be saved. Anyone who believes in Him is not condemned, but anyone who does not believe in Him is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only unique Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world but men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, otherwise his deeds should be exposed."

But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgement of God?

Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forebearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heard you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each one according to his deeds: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness --- indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil of the Jew first and also of the Greek;"

by **imaginethat** Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:11 am

As with many questions regarding the Truth as we have been led to believe, the question of universalism vs. eternal damnation has an historical root which easily is traced and verified. And, as with many modern-day tenets, the "accepted version" can be attributed, easily, to the Roman Church.

In the first five centuries of the Church, four of the six theological schools plainly taught the final salvation of all souls: Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis, with Ephesus teaching a conditional immortality or annihilation of the wicked. Carthage, which was under Rome's influence, taught endless punishment.

Of course, for "Christianity" to be integrated into human government, the fear of eternal punishment would be most useful.

Luther, Calvin and most of the protestant reformers chose to follow Augustine, the champion of eternal punishment. As you may know, the Catholic Church often refers to the Protestant reformers as errant children of the Catholic fold.

A Universalist explanation of the purpose of the fall:

Are we to believe that God purposely created man knowing that man would sin and that the vast majority of the human race would live a life of suffering, die in sin and be destined to suffer eternal torment. Is this what God foresaw or destined? This seems to be the understanding of much of Christendom. Is this what we believe? And what is to be the eternal destiny of the majority of the world who have never been so privileged as to hear the gospel? Do they go to an eternal hell for never hearing about Jesus? Is this their fault? Is it fair or just? Yet we know that God is just. The scriptures open a much more glorious revelation of our great God and Savior than is recognized by most.

God has not made man to suffer and be eternally damned, but rather that through the fall and the coming restoration, man should be elevated to a higher blessedness than could be accomplished without the fall, and the consequent suffering. Man now knows what it is like to disobey, and to be separated from God. Man can now make an informed choice when he chooses to follow God. He will serve God because it is better and he wants to.

If all men will be saved at length, and restored to a greater blessedness than before the fall then suffering is justified. The end will justify the means.

This would be more widely accepted if the purpose of suffering and death were better understood. God, our Father judges to save. He brings salvation by judging evil [47]. Evil is defeated by death. Through death God will destroy him who has the power of death [48]. So we see that the purposes of judgment, suffering, and death are educational and to bring salvation. This is clearly seen in those passages that speak of delivering offenders over to Satan "that they learn not to blaspheme [49], and "that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus [50].

If these principles are clearly discerned, the resurrection of judgment and the second death will be better understood. The threatened judgment will be recognized as connected to the soteriological promise "I make all things new" and the second death will be seen not as a hopeless state, but rather as an appointed means to bring about this salvation. Blessed be the only wise God our Savior. To him be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

www.angelfire.com/dc/universalism/Paper.html

by Pat Riot'76 Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:49 pm

All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you. --Paul

"But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.

Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world.

Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.'

And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life." --Jesus

"For just as the Father gives life to those he raises from the dead, so the Son gives life to anyone he wants. In addition, the Father judges no one. Instead, he has given the Son absolute authority to judge, so that everyone will honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son is certainly not honoring the Father who sent him.

I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

And I assure you that the time is coming, indeed it’s here now, when the dead will hear my voice—the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen will live. The Father has life in himself, and he has granted that same life-giving power to his Son. And he has given him authority to judge everyone because he is the Son of Man.

Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son, and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment. I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will." --Jesus

"He that believes on the Son has everlasting life and he that does not believe the Son does not have life but the wrath of God continually stays on him." -- Jesus

"I am writing to all who have been called by God the Father, who loves you and keeps you safe in the care of Jesus Christ. May God give you more and more mercy, peace, and love.

Dear friends, I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to his holy people. I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives. The condemnation of such people was recorded long ago, for they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

So I want to remind you, though you already know these things, that Jesus first rescued the nation of Israel from Egypt, but later he destroyed those who did not remain faithful. And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment. And don’t forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God’s judgment." --Jude

"But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Lord who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.

For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the day of judgment. And God did not spare the ancient world—except for Noah and the seven others in his family. Noah warned the world of God’s righteous judgment. So God protected Noah when he destroyed the world of ungodly people with a vast flood.

Later, God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and turned them into heaps of ashes. He made them an example of what will happen to ungodly people. But God also rescued Lot out of Sodom because he was a righteous man who was sick of the shameful immorality of the wicked people around him. Yes, Lot was a righteous man who was tormented in his soul by the wickedness he saw and heard day after day.

So you see, the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials, even while keeping the wicked under punishment until the day of final judgment." --Peter

"This is my second letter to you, dear friends, and in both of them I have tried to stimulate your wholesome thinking and refresh your memory. I want you to remember what the holy prophets said long ago and what our Lord and Savior commanded through your apostles.

Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own lusts. They will say, 'What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.'

They deliberately forget that God made the heavens by the word of his command, and he brought the earth out from the water and surrounded it with water. Then he used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood.

And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire.

They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed.

But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day. The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent. But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment." --Peter

"Then I saw heaven opened, and a white horse was standing there. Its rider was named Faithful and True, for he judges fairly and wages a righteous war.

He will release the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty, like juice flowing from a winepress. On his robe at his thigh was written this title: King of all kings and Lord of all lords.

Then I saw the Anti-christ and the kings of the world and their armies gathered together to fight against the one sitting on the horse and his army. And the Anti-christ was captured, and with him the false prophet who did mighty miracles on behalf of the beast—miracles that deceived all who had accepted the mark of the Anti-christ and who worshiped his statue.

Both the Anti-christ and his false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand. He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years. The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished.

When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God’s people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them.

Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the Anti-christ and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne.

And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire.

This lake of fire is the second death.

And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire." --John

by **swiftfoxmark2** Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:21 am

imaginethat, you have to realize that even shortly after Jesus has ascended into Heaven, there was heresy. That is, false doctrine that had some elements of truth, but it did do a lot more damage to the Church. Gnosticism was a prominent one.

I personally believe that there is no actual Hell, just a state of non-existence. In other words, God utterly destroys you outright because He cannot stand to allow sin to exist in His kingdom.

by **imaginethat** Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:41 pm

Heresy is a rather subjective analysis, pretty similar to one person's patriot is another man's traitor.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am sharing the beliefs of Universalism. I've pointed out that the Roman Church was the only one of the early churches that did not accept Universalism. And it's pure history that the Roman Church allied itself with secular government.

I like the Universalist doctrine because it addresses several points which have bothered me greatly for quite a while.

Such as ... most are going to hell? We, humans that is, surely didn't create ourselves. If, by some design characteristic, most people will choose actions that result in their being separate from God - and, for goodness sake, because of that suffer eternally in hell - there's only one reasonable party to whom to assign the blame: God.

So, if eternal hell is a sound doctrine, we have a God who creates beings with inherent flaws which cause them to reject their Creator?? And worse yet, the penalty is .... eternal damnation in hell??

Was The Fall a surprise to God? Or was it, as Universalists maintain, a part of His plan to reconcile all whom He created back to him.

Is the gift of God eternal life ... the only question being whether it will be in Heaven, or Hell?

by Doc Trock Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:42 pm

I've had discussions like this before, and I usually try to avoid them online, but I think this group is quite mature enough to handle it.....

A couple things:

IT wrote:Such as ... most are going to hell? We, humans that is, surely didn't create ourselves. If, by some design characteristic, most people will choose actions that result in their being separate from God - and, for goodness sake, because of that suffer eternally in hell - there's only one reasonable party to whom to assign the blame: God.

I would encourage you to read Romans. Paul speaks about this sort of observation....paraphrasing.....the clay vessel speaks out to the potter, "Why have you made me like this?" In other words, when we sin, it is a natural response to question God as to why he made us like this and blame Him.

Paul says that line of thinking is foolish. He explains why in Romans...please read it. Very logical, very thorough.

The bottom line is that each of us deserve hell. There isn't anything any of us can say about ourselves that exonerates our guilt. Certainly, there is nothing we can do to pay for our sins.

So, the question isn't, "Why didn't God save everyone!!!" No, the real question is more like, "Why did God save anyone?"

Did God create us like this? Well, yes and no.....he created us with the ability to procreate, which we have done since the garden of Eden. But each of us is begat in the image of the first Adam.....a sinner.

The Second Adam, Jesus, had a single purpose; to redeem fallen man.

Clearly, not everyone will be redeemed, but I believe that far more people than we can imagine will be.

So, we have no one to blame for our sin but ourselves......

Why in the world would God save us? Because he is a loving God, full of mercy and compassion.

That's a completely different take than blaming God that we are sinners.....I understand the logic that you're sharing IT.....been there myself. But there is another side to the story. Read Romans.....this argument was raging all the way to the time of the apostles.

by Pat Riot'76 Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:12 am

"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life." --Jesus

by **imaginethat** Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:00 am

Doc Trock wrote:I've had discussions like this before, and I usually try to avoid them online, but I think this group is quite mature enough to handle it.....

A couple things:
IT wrote:Such as ... most are going to hell? We, humans that is, surely didn't create ourselves. If, by some design characteristic, most people will choose actions that result in their being separate from God - and, for goodness sake, because of that suffer eternally in hell - there's only one reasonable party to whom to assign the blame: God.

I would encourage you to read Romans. Paul speaks about this sort of observation....paraphrasing.....the clay vessel speaks out to the potter, "Why have you made me like this?" In other words, when we sin, it is a natural response to question God as to why he made us like this and blame Him.

Paul says that line of thinking is foolish. He explains why in Romans...please read it. Very logical, very thorough.

The bottom line is that each of us deserve hell. There isn't anything any of us can say about ourselves that exonerates our guilt. Certainly, there is nothing we can do to pay for our sins.

So, the question isn't, "Why didn't God save everyone!!!" No, the real question is more like, "Why did God save anyone?"

Did God create us like this? Well, yes and no.....he created us with the ability to procreate, which we have done since the garden of Eden. But each of us is begat in the image of the first Adam.....a sinner.

The Second Adam, Jesus, had a single purpose; to redeem fallen man.

Clearly, not everyone will be redeemed, but I believe that far more people than we can imagine will be.

So, we have no one to blame for our sin but ourselves......

Why in the world would God save us? Because he is a loving God, full of mercy and compassion.

That's a completely different take than blaming God that we are sinners.....I understand the logic that you're sharing IT.....been there myself. But there is another side to the story. Read Romans.....this argument was raging all the way to the time of the apostles.

We did not create ourselves, we seem to possess an inherent flaw, and because of that we all deserve hell. Worse, because of the act of one man, we're born with a legacy of sin not of our own making, or doing, just an "inheritance."

But, we have no one to blame but ourselves, we, who didn't create ourselves, didn't ask to be born, certainly didn't ask to be born with an inheritance of sin from one man.

But, the question isn't "Why didn't God save everyone?" it's "Why did God save anyone?" And, given the deck which is stacked against us from the moment of conception, we have no one to blame but ourselves??????

This is the logic and the position held historically by the Roman Church, which, despite a record of blood, persecution, and corruption owing to its marriage with the governments of man, claims to be the protector of the faith, and which views all other denominations as errant children .... and backed up that claim in the past with the willingness to draw the blood of those who disagree.

Moreover, her theology, being the only one taught for centuries, now is unchallenged, her object, to have her theology be the only one, a success. Moreover, the very Bible we use was assembled ... by the Roman Church. And the concept of an eternal hell of suffering was wholly absent in the Hebrew tradition, and perhaps originated and surely was promoted by the Roman Church.

Evreything I am saying about the Roman Church has no implications or or implied judgements for ANY individual of ANY denomination or persuasion. The body of Christ is woven throughout the denominations, imo.

It is important to note Paul's emphasis that the grace and gift of Christ is "much more" influential and powerful than the power of sin and condemnation. Verse fifteen reads: "But God's free Gift is not at all to be compared to the trespass - His grace is out of all proportion to the fall of man . Where is the Justification for the belief that the will of man or the rebellion of man can stop the sovereign work of God? [John 1:13, Romans 9:11 ] He works all things after the counsel of his own will [Ephesians 1 ]. He will do what he wants to do [Romans 9], and he wants all men to be saved [2 Peter 3:9 ].

Some would say that this Romans five text, if interpreted by the broader context of the scriptures, could not teach Universalism. By the scriptures these opponents seem to refer to their own theological systems rather than the true Word of God. Universalism runs like a golden thread throughout all of scripture, and the apparent contradictions to it seem to be only misunderstandings in the minds of men clouded by the Church tradition.

Christ clearly taught that "The Father loveth the Son and hath given all things into his hand" (John 3:35). And said "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me ... and this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all that he hath given me I should lose nothing" (John 6:37,39). "Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28, 29). With passion, referring to his death, He states "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me" (John 12:32). With the psalmist we must shout for joy for "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee" (Psalms 65:4) For "unto thee shall all flesh come" (Psalms 65:2). And Jesus states that "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came ... to do ... the will of Him that sent me" (John 6: 37-38).

One point Universalism deals with well: With a univrsal salvation, Satan and his intentions are thwarted utterly.

This is a discussion for me. I'm not looking to "win" this discussion. I am happy for those who believe they have a firm grip on the meaning of the Scriptures and the Plan of God. For me, both continue being shrouded in mystery. I continue feeling like a little child.

by Pat Riot'76 Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:50 pm

I don't think any one is trying to win this discussion. There is a basis for Faith. It's in the Scriptures.

Since there is no eternal damnation, then why is there a need for universal salvation?

And universal salvation really isn't universal. It's global. The angels that sinned are left out of eternal salvation, so the same concern regarding the goodness of God to humans, should it not also be said regarding angels?

There is a reason universalism is reincarnated every so often. It's reasoning eventually breaks down. The most recent universalist reconstitution in the late 1800s has led to the wide acceptance of spiritualism and denials of the person and work of Jesus Christ.

by **imaginethat** Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:44 am

Your question has been answered in this thread, Pat.

Christ is Lord of all Creation, and angels are created beings.

I'm not sure what you are implying in the last paragraph. However, the stronger the outburst of Truth, the more dramatic the response by the forces of darkness. Most of us have experienced this phenomenon in our own lives.

Imo, mainstream churches throughout the centuries have been the leaders in denying the person and work of Jesus Christ. The historical horrors sanctified if not instigated by the mainstream churches bear testimony to their bloodguilt.

The Pharasaical nature of the modern church and the socieity around it is as ripe for the rebukes of Jesus Christ as were the Jewish churches and society of his day.

Jesus Christ surely would be crucified now, as he was then, and leading the accusations would be church "leaders." It's an ugly truth, but more than plausible.

by Pat Riot'76 Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:32 am

My question about Satan isn't answered, IT.

I'm not implying anything in the last paragraph. It is an historical observation and not uncommon knowledge. Even Wiki probably has it right. The latest reincarnation (perhaps the previous now), Universalists were closely entangled with spiritualism. The UU church denies the deity and atonement of Jesus. There is a logical reasoning process why that happened.

I'm sure Jesus would be crucified today. But the modern church isn't pharasaical. The Pharisees were righteous and pious -- and self-righteous and proud of their piety and hypocritical. That's latter three are what Jesus condemned them for. The modern church has more in common with the Sadducees who had a hedonistic "eat-drink-be merry for tomorrow we die" view of life. That is the modern church. Doesn't look any different or view life any different than the world around them. Anyway. That's a rabbit trail.

The point is that the deity of Jesus and the reason for his death/resurrection will eventually be denied. It has in the UU.

I mean we can reason our own logic through this or what about the Scriptures listed.

by **imaginethat** Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:29 am

Pat, to equate Unitarian Universalism with the Christian Universalism, which has a history as long as Chrisitanity is a mistake, my friend.

In my opinion, comparing Christian Universalism to any of the recent incarnations of the Universalist Church also is an error. The wiki article on Christain Universalism is useful in understanding the Universalist position.

I have attempted to form an association with the present-day Universalist Church, and imo it is only slightly less amiss than the UU church, not enough to matter. Rather snobby.....

As I've mentioned, I'm visiting Ukraine, and by accident yesterday, I was present for an Othodox service. Just fascinating, and the singing, the choral harmonies lilting through St. Vladimir's Cathedral, in Kiev. About all I knew of the Othodox Church was that my gandmother, an immigrant from Lebanon, was an Othodox church-goer.

However, today I've been brushing up on the Orthodox theology, which is similar to Catholic theology. Each reject sola scriptura which pretty much froms the backbone of the Reformed or Protestant churches.

Yet, the Orthodox churches put together what you call the Scriptures, though each includes a bit more than what you call the Scriptures. Now, I'm not going to ask you why you don't include what they include, but do accept part of what they include ... that's not my point.

My pont is: imo, there's no one correct way of practicing a Christian belief. To deny that a strong universalist strand runs through the Bible, in whatever version, requires some ... gymnastics. To deny the political usefullness of an "exclusive" theology requires willing denial. To deny the political marriage between the Christian churches advocating an "exclusive" theology requires an ignorance of history.

If you are quite comfortable in your knowledge of God, well, God bless you. Smile

My ongoing study of the Bible has surely opened up more questions, and important ones, than it has answered. Most inquiry into deep subjects has this outcome.

by Pat Riot'76 Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:33 pm

imaginethat wrote:Pat, to equate Unitarian Universalism with the Christian Universalism, which has a history as long as Chrisitanity is a mistake, my friend.

Imo, it is not a mistake. And I did not equate. 'Unitarian' Universalism is the logical conclusion of 'Christian' Universalism. Whenever universalism is reincarnated or reconstituted or repopularized it seems new and fresh and answers all the icky questions about the goodness of God vs. eternal damnation. The Person and work of Jesus can even be maintained for that generation. But successive generations of disciples will eventually take universalism to its logical conclusion: ie. churches and beliefs like the UUs.

Longevity is not the sole determinate of what is true, IT. 'Christian' gnosticism has nearly as long a history as Christianity, too. Paganism longer. Truth is found in the Scriptures. Human reason is a tool for and not the judge of biblical truth.

imaginethat wrote:My pont is: imo, there's no one correct way of practicing a Christian belief. To deny that a strong universalist strand runs through the Bible, in whatever version, requires some ... gymnastics. To deny the political usefullness of an "exclusive" theology requires willing denial. To deny the political marriage between the Christian churches advocating an "exclusive" theology requires an ignorance of history.

If you are quite comfortable in your knowledge of God, well, God bless you.

I can assure you that me weighing in at 230 pounds -- I have absolutely no gymnastic ability at all. Laughing

But am quite confident in denying a strong universalist strand runs through the Bible.

Politicians may use an "exclusive" theology. That fact, whether in history or contemporary, whether great or small, does not mark that "exclusive" theology as being a false teaching. Couching their "evil" in "good" is nothing new. All men are capable of all kinds of evil. Although in universalism, the kinds of evil that all men do don't really matter. They'll have eternal life anyway. Apparently even Satan, too.

And here we are, where I didn't want to go.

Talking about universalism, the faults foisted upon Christianity by twisted men or men who are genuine but still in error, and/or questions still unanswered --- rather than looking at what the Scriptures say.

Comfortable? No.

But I am content in who God is, what He says, and who I am because of what He did for me.

by **imaginethat** Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:33 am

I don't understand for a moment what you meant by saying, "And here we are, where I didn't want to go."

Origins of doctrines Pat, and summary pronouncements. You choose to side with the church of Rome. I don't. The Scriptures are a good reference point, so....

Surely you know, "hell" cannot be found in the Scriptures. Hades, Gehenna, Tartaroo, Sheol .... these can be found. Not one refers to a place of eternal punishment and suffering. The assertion that only eternal damnation provides a proper frame of reference for salvation isn't far off from asserting that the death penalty should be assessed for all crimes, whether shoplifting or murder.

Yes, go to the Scriptures..... The OT God, the warrior God Yahweh, the Terrible God, the God who commanded the annihilation of the men, women, and children of Israel's enemies ... an awesome God, jealous, angry.... the story told in the OT. And yet, the idea of an eternal hell is absent in the Hebrew faith, and the OT.

It is important to ascertain from where this idea of an eternal hell did originate. To me, it's critical, for upon this idea's veracity, or lack thereof, the veracity of other doctrines from the same source do indeed hinge.

And, in "following the money trail" of this abhorrent doctrine, motivations will be uncovered., and they will be the usual: the intent to exert control over the masses. Religion and government have been married throughout human recorded history and surely before that. The "onward" march of "Christian soldiers" culminated in the world's first worldwide colonial era. Just history, Pat.

That's how effective this eternal damnation theme was in driving people to seek "salvation." And like the Hebews of the OT, these "christian soldiers" were under orders to annihilate men, women, children, and cultures who refused to bend their knees to Jesus.

Eternal hell is a human invention.

The list in my previous post stands unaddressed:

"The Father loveth the Son and hath given all things into his hand" (John 3:35). And said "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me ... and this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all that he hath given me I should lose nothing" (John 6:37,39). "Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28, 29). With passion, referring to his death, He states "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me" (John 12:32). With the psalmist we must shout for joy for "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee" (Psalms 65:4) For "unto thee shall all flesh come" (Psalms 65:2).

There is not a UU believer on the planet who would agree to these Universalist precepts:

* God is the loving Parent of all people, see Love of God.
* Jesus Christ reveals the nature and character of God and is the spiritual leader of humankind.
* Humankind is created with an immortal soul which death does not end, and which God will never destroy.[5]
* Sin has negative consequences for the sinner either in this life or the afterlife (some concept of karma or purgatory), but the penalty for sin is not everlasting (i.e. doctrines of damnation to hell and annihilationism are rejected).
* Universal reconciliation: All souls are reconciled (or will eventually be reconciled) to God without exception.
* Theosis as the meaning of salvation: All souls will ultimately be conformed to the image of divine perfection in Christ.

Mystery religions have an appeal because of "specialness." The doctrine of an everlasting hell shares this appeal.The originators of the hell doctrine would deserve a special place in hell ... if our loving Father maintained, eternally, a place of conscious torment.

Imo, He does not.

by Pat Riot'76 Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:51 pm

I'm chosing to follow the doctrines of Rome? Sad

Fine.

Are any of the following passages in any Bible versions that meet your requirements?

Pat Riot'76 wrote:All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you. --Paul

"But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.

Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world.

Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.'

And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life." --Jesus

"For just as the Father gives life to those he raises from the dead, so the Son gives life to anyone he wants. In addition, the Father judges no one. Instead, he has given the Son absolute authority to judge, so that everyone will honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son is certainly not honoring the Father who sent him.

I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

And I assure you that the time is coming, indeed it’s here now, when the dead will hear my voice—the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen will live. The Father has life in himself, and he has granted that same life-giving power to his Son. And he has given him authority to judge everyone because he is the Son of Man.

Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son, and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment. I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will." --Jesus

"He that believes on the Son has everlasting life and he that does not believe the Son does not have life but the wrath of God continually stays on him." -- Jesus

"I am writing to all who have been called by God the Father, who loves you and keeps you safe in the care of Jesus Christ. May God give you more and more mercy, peace, and love.

Dear friends, I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to his holy people. I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives. The condemnation of such people was recorded long ago, for they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

So I want to remind you, though you already know these things, that Jesus first rescued the nation of Israel from Egypt, but later he destroyed those who did not remain faithful. And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment. And don’t forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God’s judgment." --Jude

"But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Lord who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.

For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the day of judgment. And God did not spare the ancient world—except for Noah and the seven others in his family. Noah warned the world of God’s righteous judgment. So God protected Noah when he destroyed the world of ungodly people with a vast flood.

Later, God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and turned them into heaps of ashes. He made them an example of what will happen to ungodly people. But God also rescued Lot out of Sodom because he was a righteous man who was sick of the shameful immorality of the wicked people around him. Yes, Lot was a righteous man who was tormented in his soul by the wickedness he saw and heard day after day.

So you see, the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials, even while keeping the wicked under punishment until the day of final judgment." --Peter

"This is my second letter to you, dear friends, and in both of them I have tried to stimulate your wholesome thinking and refresh your memory. I want you to remember what the holy prophets said long ago and what our Lord and Savior commanded through your apostles.

Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own lusts. They will say, 'What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.'

They deliberately forget that God made the heavens by the word of his command, and he brought the earth out from the water and surrounded it with water. Then he used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood.

And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire.

They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed.

But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day. The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent. But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment." --Peter

"Then I saw heaven opened, and a white horse was standing there. Its rider was named Faithful and True, for he judges fairly and wages a righteous war.

He will release the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty, like juice flowing from a winepress. On his robe at his thigh was written this title: King of all kings and Lord of all lords.

Then I saw the Anti-christ and the kings of the world and their armies gathered together to fight against the one sitting on the horse and his army. And the Anti-christ was captured, and with him the false prophet who did mighty miracles on behalf of the beast—miracles that deceived all who had accepted the mark of the Anti-christ and who worshiped his statue.

Both the Anti-christ and his false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand. He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years. The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished.

When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God’s people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them.

Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the Anti-christ and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne.

And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire.

This lake of fire is the second death.

And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire." --John

by **imaginethat** Fri Aug 13, 2010 5:45 pm

Do you deny that the concept of an eternal hell if not Roman in origin certainly was promoted at the end of a sword, one made of metal, by the Roman Church??? Where, in the words of the Gospels, is the concept of an eternal hell? Finding that will prove to be a difficult task, as the word hell is not to be found in the Gospels, or anywhere else in the NT.

And, with which of my quotations from the Bible, from the Gospels primarily, do you find fault?

The question is open, imo Pat. Contradictory statements regarding the fate of unrepentent sinners are in the Scriptures. The word "hell" is a translation. The concept of an eternal hell is absent in the OT.

In my mind, room for questioning exists, and not merely room but cause for questioning.

I am uncomfortable with an eternal judgement laid upon people who have been allegedly CONCEIVED in inherited sin, born with it, their being raised by parents likewise conceived, this inheritance all the fault of one man, the original man, these people who live in a world governed by principles absolutely hostile the the ruling principles of the Kingdom of Heaven, people who may, or may not, have heard the Gospel, and if they have heard it, may or may not have heard a correct version of it or who may or may not have correctly understood it, people who may live a life of love and service, perhaps in excess of many who have "accepted Christ," but people, because of his or her failure to "accept Christ" will suffer, endlessly and consciously, in "hell." this, allegedly, a punishment befitting sins committed in a life of three score and ten, or twenty, or so.

Imo, a horrible commentary on the nature of God, a nature more befitting of human beings than our Creator. Yet, continually and continuously, humans have sought to re-define the Creator with human attributes.

By and large, these efforts at redefinition have been successful.

And NO, I do not believe or see how the idea of an eternal damnation has helped in bringing people to God.

by Pat Riot'76 Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:50 am

IT, you said on page one you're open to discussion. But you are answering questions that haven't been asked and not answering the questions that have been asked. There has been discussion on universalist papers and sources from angelfire. There has been no/little discussion from the Scriptures.

Here's the deal: we're under the assumption that we have the same assumptions. We don't.

I'm good with bowing out right now. If you want to discuss further then I will, but once the assumptions have been clearly chalked out.

So I'll ask again, are any of the above passages of Scripture in any Bible that you accept?

by **imaginethat** Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:38 pm

Accept? Do you mean: Accept that they support the doctrine of an eternal hell of conscious punishment?

No. We could talk about the Greek adjective translated "eternal," but do you want to?

It does get down to what the Bible says,. So, the origin of it, who put it together, under what circumstances, for what purposes, how were those who didn't accept the official version treated, can we trust those who assembled what we call the Bible, can we accept that the translations we have are accurate ... all these are valid questions, and vaild discussion points. I've attempted to discuss them.

You offered a list of Bible quotations in response, and a question: Do I accept them? I've offered my answer to your question My adult Christian faith has never included an eternal hell or eternal, as in never-ending, punishment.

Actually, for most of my life, I've taken literally the notion that eternal life is a gift of God. Thus, those who do not receive this gift ... die, cease to exist, and in their final moments of consciouness, they are indeed conscious of what they could have had but won't, and that realization is .... hell.

Only lately have I given the idea of universal salvation much thought.

Presumeably, if the early churches were sorking off the same Bible we have today, how could any controversy have existed? How could anyone question the quotes you shared? But, there was a universalist school in the early days of the Church, and that leads me to raise the questions I've posed.

Did they have the same Bible we have today? Or, was it understood in the same way our Bible of today is understood?

These are valid questions, as are the others I've offered. I hope you can appreciate that going to the Scriptures in a discussion about the Scriptures doesn't work, at least, not for me.

by Pat Riot'76 Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:46 pm

A "No" would have been more than sufficient. I know all the reasons for the "no". Heard them hundreds of times.

So there's no foundational agreement for me to continue this discussion.

by **imaginethat** Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:01 am

Cool. I've heard all the reasons for the yes hundreds of times too. Cool

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